Johnice Williams and Orlando Vera are co-founders of Peer Voices of OC, a group that works to empower individuals who live with mental health conditions. They share their experiences navigating the mental health care system, the need for self-advocacy and the stigma associated with mental health.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Hello, and welcome to the Hope Happens Here Podcast. I'm Kate Gosney Hoffman, and I'm so glad you're here today. Right now I have the pleasure of sitting down with both Orlando Vera and Johnice Williams from Peer Voices of OC. They are the co-founders of PVOC, which started last year with the guidance of Mind OC and [MECA 00:00:22]. Peer Voices of OC is a peer-led movement that provides and promotes an empowered and informed voice of by and for peers with lived experience in the behavioral healthcare system and in the community. Their motto is nothing about us without us. Welcome to the show, you guys.
Johnice Williams:
Thank you.
Orlando Vera:
Thank you. We're excited to be here.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah. That motto, nothing about us without us, is powerful and says so much.
Orlando Vera:
We stole it.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
You did?
Orlando Vera:
Of course.
Johnice Williams:
Yes. There's a lot of organizations that have that motto. So it just fits right into what we're doing. So why not?
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Well, why don't we just go from there? What are you doing? What is PVOC? What is it? Can you tell us in a nutshell what is it that you guys are up to? Because it's really exciting.
Johnice Williams:
It's exciting for us because we're finally looked at as peers that want to live great, wonderful lives. Break the stigma that's out there with people that have mental health issues and/or substance use disorder. And so from what we understand is we're two peers that happened to have gone through the mental health organizations helping us get back into recovery and stay in recovery. And now, it's the idea. And it's not just the idea, but putting into action that we have something to say. And the MHA was created for us, Mental Health Act. And that we are to have voices. We're supposed to be in everything. Not just listening, not just having anyone come to us and say, "This is how you're going to do it." We're not in an institution. We're not in jail. We're living our lives in the community, in the Orange County community.
And this has been around, I believe, since 2004 for the Mental Health Act. And so us working or he worked and I had been a recipient of the organizations, the programs in Orange County. It just felt right to say, "It's time." And we have a lot of friends and family that have helped us with getting our voices out, going to meetings, participating and showing people that you don't have to take what everybody has to give you for speaking or for doing anything. You're not a child. You are someone that has your own mind and body and it's okay. It's okay to want something better.
Orlando Vera:
Yeah. I agree with that. That was really good. I think that she says I worked, but I was also a peer. And that's interesting because what is a peer? That's part of our journey right now, is trying to figure out, what is a peer? Because I'm a peer, but I'm in the mental health community. I get services. So it's a really complex part of this. I worked but I was still struggling with things. And that's the part of the peer that we're trying to capture where I needed support. Peers need support. And I think they don't go into the workforce. They stay out of the workforce. Employers do not understand all the struggles they go through. And they may not be able to have concessions or even small things that might help them. And the stigma out there is just overwhelming.
I myself, I'm going to be honest, I have a hard time. I was just telling Johnice this earlier just a little bit ago. I'm like, "I'm barely with that bio that I wrote, that I sent to you." I think that's really almost my first time almost breaking out and saying, "I have a mental health issue." And it's really overwhelming because I've been told that I'm pretty smart. So do smart people have mental health issues? It's a real challenge. And when you're smart also, apparently, you can hide a lot. So you end up covering up a lot. Just like when you have a lot of resources. If you have a lot of money, you can cover up a lot more. So the same with brain power, you can cover up a lot.
And I think society does do that. And I was told to do that because if you opened up and said anything, you're going to be stigmatized. And to some degree, it's very true. But I think being inside your own head and having all these things that you're not expressing is going to kill you one way or the other. Right? So you might as well speak up.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
You can be as smart as ever. Like you said, you're lost in your own head with all these issues that are not getting reconciled or resolved or admitting that you are struggling with or reaching out for help. I mean, you're trapped in a way.
Orlando Vera:
And I use this example all the time. And I always say I go and I love navigating my ways that takes me from point A to point B. But the navigator picks up data from everywhere to get you to a certain place within a certain time. We don't function that way in our society. We keep so many secrets. So how can we really make good decisions if we really don't have all of the information because people are scared to speak up?
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah, that's true.
Johnice Williams:
Yeah. And not only are we scared to speak up, we don't think we're heard. And the thing has been for my journey with the Orange County Behavioral Health System, has been that I've had to look for help for myself. My doctors didn't know. A lot of facilities didn't know. Programs didn't know. And I used to carry a binder, and he can attest. I carry a binder with all of the resources that I just had and I give them to my doctors. I give them to anyone that's on the street. I take the bus. So I hand stuff out on the bus, talk to people that are looking for things.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
That's amazing.
Johnice Williams:
Well, it's because I had to do it myself. And we really need to have more resources out there. I educated myself, and I have mental health issues. What's the excuse for everybody else?
Orlando Vera:
But also, there's a lot of arrogance involved. She's educating her therapist, educating her psychiatrist, and some of them are very receptive, but there's a lot also that are not. So at the same time, they believe they know better. And I think that when any professional does not concede that they don't know everything, and they are not open to listening to that person, then I think they're not helping you. And I think that's part of the problem.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
What a beautiful point. Right? I mean, I can see why you have found such a need and you're filling a gap here with the peer support. Because right there, enter the Peer Support, right? Because you had to do all your self-advocacy, which in a way, is self-empowering and can kind of help with your recovery process because you're taking ownership of your life, your health, your mental well-being. And let's be honest, you should not have to be doing it all by yourself.
Johnice Williams:
No.
Orlando Vera:
Just a little bit harder.
Johnice Williams:
It's just a little bit. And when people are like, "Oh, well, what about your case manager? Oh, what about going to Orange County Healthcare Agency?" I had so many problems with getting resources. And if I got resources, sometimes they were gone. They were done. Couldn't help or no longer in business and just all of these things. And we have a system, and the system's supposed to work for us. It's supposed to help us. And for the most part, I've met several people that have taken their time out to listen to us, to help us, and actually sit there and educate themselves, empower themselves. And it's great when you hear that, but for me, myself, I'll speak, is that there needs to be more. There needs to be more. If you have... I believe it's over 200,000 people in your county that are needing to have behavioral health services. It needs to be plastered everywhere where you can get it. And those people that are involved in it, those programs, need to be vocal. Need to be in every hospital, every police station, anything.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Be present. Have a presence, availability.
Orlando Vera:
And you got to push that envelope because I think unfortunately... There's some great regulatory issues that apply to HIPAA and disclosures. And some of the stuff is being used against the patient. A lot of rules are actually saying, "I cannot do this. This is beyond the scope of what I can do." I don't like BS too much. I like it straight. And I definitely think that a lot of it is just a way to protect the counselor and protect the company and protect from liability, which I can understand. But at the same time, it really diminishes the quality. If you're not a human, and you can't go to that one on one and listen to someone, then what are you really doing? Because anyone can drive through and get a burger.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Right. It's true and I hear you. Kind of the litigiousness of licensure and everything does create a barrier because a lot of the time, you might as a clinician be blocked from going as far as you'd like to go because it's out of scope, out of whatever, which there are reasons for that, and those are ethical things, and there's a place for that. But I can see why enter the peer support, where you're able to be a little bit more free in the work that you're doing.
Orlando Vera:
It is. Yeah, you're able to say, "I can relate to you." And they've done all the studies. The funny part about it is we're doing playbook and we're putting together research and finding out all of this data that shows that peers in this environment work and everybody knows that it works. And it's almost like a given, but at the same time, the respect is not there, and the support is not there. And there's a lot of fear because peers already have struggled with mental health issues, drug issues. They have a lot of different issues. So when they go to work, they're like a little puppy dog just listening to the leadership for direction. But at the same time, they have a lot to offer. They have so much experience, more experience, and I don't want to put any degree down, than a PhD. When someone says, "I've been through five different programs. I've been to jail. I've lived in the streets." You tell me that a psychiatrist can relate to that?
So I think it has to be complementary. I'm not here to take from one or the other. I think it's about adding, and we talked about this. Bringing things together, not separating them, not saying that this without psychiatry, without regulatory. No, it's all together.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
It's both and, right? They both can exist together. And I worked in substance abuse for many years and, and that's what I would always teach my clients, is that there isn't one-size-fits-all, there isn't one solution for everybody. But what really is going to be a good idea for almost everybody is to book end yourself with support, and you can book end yourself with one word, then you have your therapist on the other end, you have your peer support group, AA, whatever it is. And it's not one's better than the other, but let's bring them all together. I mean, that is collectively, for us to work together is ideal in so many ways.
Johnice Williams:
And to also add on to that is it's letting the person decide, make the decisions.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Good point.
Johnice Williams:
So it I may not belong to AA, that may not work for me, but there's so many other things out there that aren't being offered. And I know that with the Be Well Movement, it's starting to come together and we are embraced in the community, which is great. But it's still... There's a lot of work to be done. And I am looking forward to a day that we don't have to search for everything ourselves, that everyone has access to maybe a website or updated 211 OSI links, just different sources, resources that can help and not have to wait for weeks, months. Because when you are having a crisis, you just can't say, "Okay. I'll deal with it later." I mean, you could.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
We'll get around [crosstalk 00:15:31].
Johnice Williams:
Exactly. So yeah.
Orlando Vera:
Peers definitely need to realize how much and what part they play. And I think they haven't really been... We haven't put enough emphasis on how much they do for the community. They're not being paid what they deserve, they're not being supported. And on top of that, when they're in a workforce, they already come from struggle. I mean, an employer already knows that that peer has been through a lot so he needs-
Johnice Williams:
Lived experience.
Orlando Vera:
And that lived experience comes at a price. That means that he will have maybe some hiccups. And that it has to be input into the workforce. Otherwise, then all you're doing is just throwing them back in the street.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
We've talked about this already in a way since we started, but can you define what a peer is in the community in this context? I mean, the...
Orlando Vera:
Did you have to give us a difficult question like that?
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
I mean, I think it is kind of explanatory. But from your perspective, from the organization you started, how would you describe a peer?
Orlando Vera:
You need an hour to describe it.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
You got 10 minutes.
Orlando Vera:
Johnice, take it on first and then I'll see what I can add.
Johnice Williams:
That's exactly. It's like, for us, we recognize a peer as someone with lived experience. Someone who has had mental health issues currently or in the past, and/or substance use disorder. You have to know that a peer is someone who is either in their crisis, or trying to get out of the crisis. They're not, "Oh, well, today, it's sunny out, I guess I'll go to the beach and act up." It's, there's a whole lot that goes into a person that has mental health issues and substance use disorder. So it's just so much. It is hard to describe, but it's also, I like to include caregivers and family members. Because they know, they see, they've lived it, they've helped or trying to help. So the peer is a very important person, not something, it is a person.
Orlando Vera:
And it's being developed. I think that definition is like it's still being developed. So it's almost a moving target. It's growing. And I don't know where the peer is going to be. I mean, to be honest, right now it has a certain meaning. In a year from now, I predict that it's going to have a different meaning. It's really strange. And I think that I'm adding a peer. I'm almost thinking, because I think about that a lot. I'm like, "I think a peer is almost... Everybody's a peer. Everybody is a human." It's almost more... I mean, my daughter is an English major, so I'm sure I'm going to mess it up, is an adjective or one of those things. She'll laugh when she hears.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
One of those things. My husband is an English teacher so I know what it's like.
Orlando Vera:
Oh, she's catches me on all the verbs and adverbs. So it's a moving target. It really is. That's growing and it's becoming... I don't know what it's going to become. But I think for most of us, what Johnice described is very accurate.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah. And so in the context of PVOC, it's giving voices to these people that are peers who are here to help facilitate somebody's journey to mental health?
Johnice Williams:
Yes.
Orlando Vera:
They are. They are actually the backbone. They are the true backbone. There's not enough psychiatrists in California to help everyone. There's not enough therapists. And we all know the stories of how limited their time is and they focus-
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
And insurance.
Orlando Vera:
Insurance. And they're limited. And again, it's not to take away from any of them because we need them, is the fact that the backbone is the peer. But I don't think they even realize. I don't think I realize. I've had a lot of people say, "Oh, you helped me with this." I'm like, Oh, okay." Johnice was one of them that actually elevated me to realize what I was doing, because I was providing services. And she's like, "Wow, this is what you're doing." But I didn't even realize it. And also people in the community that are the psychiatrists, the therapist, and those that are in the mental health field already, are also making me wake up and helping me to see my value. So this is not like I'm coming out of left field, or we're coming out of left field and we're trying to give our own value, this is value that is actually being given to us and spotting and making me recognize things that I did not see.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
What you've already been doing.
Orlando Vera:
What we have been doing.
Johnice Williams:
Our life experience and the greatest thing for me has been that we have been recognized by the county, and by Be Well, and few other organizations and they're asking us to help. And it started off with just us two. And that was over a year ago. And so it wasn't first on our mind to, "Oh, yeah. We're going to have an organization or peer movement, let's go. Blah, blah, blah." It was that we were being heard. That's the part that still has me with chill bumps, because I thought, "Okay. I'm just going to speak and they're just going to ignore." And it was so great. It has been great, because they're embracing us and what we're finding out, too, are there're more organizations out there that are silent and are definitely in need of funds. And I'm sure that there's funds out there to be had. My hope is, my biggest prayer for this movement, for behavioral health is that they get the money that they need. That they are able to go to the meetings with the plan, of course, and be able to talk to someone and get help. Because these are organizations that are helping other people that have lived experience.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Orlando Vera:
And what's really crazy is that you go to any company or you do anything online, and immediately... You go to your doctor and they send you a survey. They want to know what you feel. "How was your service?" But a lot of times in the mental health field, it's really more of, "This is what we're giving you?" Not necessarily, "Are you getting better? Is this really working?" So it's not based on good data, whether it's working or not. So it's induced, it's pushed on you. And I think that a lot of times it'd be better if they would ask, "What would help you?" And that to me, I think is very important.
Johnice Williams:
And it's not just asking, but actually implementing, actually being in front of them, showing them, "Hey, this is what's going on." And what has been great for me... And actually, Orlando and I, we got to go to the Orange Campus. And they showed us the different things that we actually were asked and didn't think anything would happen. And Dr. Brand made sure she did the tour with us. We were just going to be there for our weekly meeting. And she took us and that was a three hour discussion of everything and showing the words we use when you get off the elevator on each floor, it has a word. It's encouraging. The offices have words on the glass. Things that we chose, things that we were like, "Okay. Let's see, colors here, words here, this should be here." I went home and I was like... When it hit me finally, I was in tears because this is the way it's supposed to be. You asked me what I thought, you validated me by making sure that it was implemented. That's what we're trying to do.
Orlando Vera:
And the opposite of that is let's say you complain, let's say they didn't ask you. So I work on the complaint side. So someone complains and says, "I'm not getting anything out of this." Well, that's an opportunity. A complaint is really. I actually had to come to realize, in being in this whole industry and looking at this and struggling with my own issues, that when someone complaints, they're actually giving me the opportunity to see something that... And they are the real brave ones. Those that complain are the ones that make things better for all of us. They're the brave ones. And I felt like a coward because I didn't like complaining because I always knew what complaining gets you, which is downgraded a little bit.
Johnice Williams:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yes.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
It's true. Well, and I appreciate that perspective so much about... I mean, because what I'm hearing is this, "Okay. I'm seeing..." When you see those words on the wall and when you see the opportunities that are presented to you, you can actually kind of recognize your worth as well and have that reflected back to you how much you actually have to offer. You may not have a PhD, but you certainly know what you're talking about. And you have life experience. And not only the life experience, but I guess the healing that you've experienced.
Johnice Williams:
And that's one of the words.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Okay. The healing, you know like happens. And that is what you can share because you've been there. That comes from a place of truth. It's so powerful.
Johnice Williams:
And now when people go there to get help, we're the ones that helped. We are the ones that were able to know what they needed. And those words are very important. And the way that everything is situated over there. It doesn't treat you like you're nothing, that you're not important. Everything is geared just like our organization is geared to help the person to recover, include the family, include the caregiver, include the community.
Orlando Vera:
And we should also include that we have a lot of guilt. And the reason we do is because we were lucky enough to be in this and be recognized. So I'm going to be honest, I feel a lot of guilt. I feel like I can't leave my peers behind. We have to give them a voice. I would not want to be one of the few that just say, "Oh, I've reached this level." Or, "We're here. We're being recognized." Well, how about everyone else? So for me, I think it's important.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Well, that just goes right along with what you're trying to do, right? Is you're not trying to take all the credit. You're trying to make everybody a part of this. I mean, that's the definition of the peer support thing. And so what does this look like then, to do that? I mean, what is PVOC doing specifically in terms of what you just said, giving voice to everybody? What does that look like?
Orlando Vera:
We're learning the rules.
Johnice Williams:
Oh, yeah. We're learning the rules.
Orlando Vera:
We are learning the rules because here's part of it. When you're struggling with mental health issues, when you're out there as a peer, you don't even have resources, you don't have a roadmap. We've been lucky to find people like Be Well, MECCA, and other organizations that have really supported us and have given us a lot of support and been giving us the open access to know how these things function. So that it's just not just a voice that's going fade it's going to be heard. So I think part of it is knowing the rules.
Johnice Williams:
Yeah. Knowing the rules, yes, is important, because that's what we want to find out for ourselves that we can also share with other people, going to the steering committee, you've got to know what the process is, how you're able to talk, when you're able to talk. And also, showing people that you can be part of the community even if it's just you have a talk, or you have a video. We want everybody to feel inclusive in their recovery. You can't be by yourself. You need to have help. And in my mind, that's what I was missing years ago. Is that yes, I have friends, I had a little bit of family, but as I've been growing over the past five years, I have run into so many people that have helped me, educate me, helped me to move forward. And that's what we need more of, but we need the committees, we need people that are on MHA Board, on the MHSA Steering Committee, anyone with the healthcare system to do the same thing.
Orlando Vera:
And you can't be angry about it either. I think part of this as well is when you're frustrated. Being angry isn't going to help. So part of it is, how do you get your point across? Which isn't just simple communication, but if you aren't being heard at all, that makes it much more frustrating. But for us, I think having the support has helped a lot because it's not as if we weren't saying things, it's just that they weren't being heard. So I think being heard is so important, and then at the same time, learning the process of how to get your voice out, which I feel that every voice should be heard. I mean, that's the whole basis of having good communication. Your computer collaborates with every part of it in order to function properly. And I think in our society, we lack that. And so I think learning how that process works, and getting to that point where you can communicate and get to articulate and be able to say it without so much anger, and know that that is the process and accept it, is very important.
Because think about it. And let's say you want to make a change on something and now you change it, if the change was so quick, that means the next person with another idea whether it's crazy, or great, or whatever, is going to change it too. So there has to be some uniformity and some rules to some of this stuff, even if we don't like it.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
And so this is information and wisdom that you are kind of out in the field gaining-
Orlando Vera:
And giving.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
... and giving. And so are you taking it back and kind of training people on how to be a peer support with this knowledge? What kind of model are you guys working with at this point?
Johnice Williams:
One of the things we're doing, as Orlando was saying, is we have a playbook that we have to come up with. And so with that, we're learning more things, what we're supposed to do. We've had three... Well, we're going to have three. We've had to have three engagement meetings. To get feedback from the people in the community, we've started with the first meeting, we said, "We're only going to have 20 people." We wound up having over 30. The second meeting, thank God, was like 13, I said 10. So we want to hear what the community has to say, due to the fact that we're not the only ones in the community. There's over 200,000 people.
Orlando Vera:
You want to tell them a little bit about the second engagement? That was more for families with different meeting.
Johnice Williams:
Yeah. The first one was for peers. The second one was for families and caregivers. And the families and caregivers were expressing the problems they were having with the police, with the hospitals. No one could give them help for their loved one, for the person that they were trying to care for. And so they call different places and different information, and then they wouldn't give them. It just was so... It's chaotic.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah. Good word for that.
Johnice Williams:
Chaotic.
Orlando Vera:
But part of this, though, is we're not just looking at the negative. We're not trying to look for the complaints because in our organization, we also have a lot of knowledge because personally, we have one person in our organization, which is Kristen Pankratz, and she is involved with training sheriffs to be able to handle people that struggle with mental health issues. And a lot of people aren't even aware of that. So equally, I think good information has to be out there. And so when you say a voice and speaking up, speaking up can be for both sides. It should be balanced.
Johnice Williams:
Yes. And that's where we come in because we want to see it balanced. We're not going an anti government, anti this. No. We know that the county is there for us. They are understanding that they are also ones that want to receive. It's supposed to be together. That's why we have them.
Orlando Vera:
Add to. I think that's why we've said, add to. So you already have a police force, you don't have to change it, right? So just add to, add better services to what they have. If you've ever remodeled a home or anything like that, you're not going to start and tear out the foundation completely unless it's necessary. You knock down a few walls, but I think it's about remodeling. It's not necessarily about tearing it down.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
No. What a great analogy. And what comes to mind as I'm hearing you to talk about these meetings you're having, and being out in the community, and gathering knowledge, and also sharing your wisdom with all of these different representations of, I guess, the helpers out there, the police, the hospitals, the clinicians, non-profits, whatever it may be, the family members, the peers, you seem to me like you are the liaison between all of these entities, or can be a liaison between these entities because-
Orlando Vera:
There was a slogan that we had. We had a slogan.
Johnice Williams:
Yeah, we did. And now I can't remember. [crosstalk 00:35:19] coming up with slogans.
Orlando Vera:
Oh, I love slogans. [crosstalk 00:35:22] It was like, we're like peers for programs. Something to that effect. And then you said exactly. We do want to be that, we're trying to be that, the reasonable party for both sides. Because like I said, it's not just about requests, it's also about your own personal responsibility of what you have to do. So it's not one or the other. It's not about bashing the sheriffs. It's about saying, "Hey, you guys, this is an area that you need improvement on." Great. And also admire them for the great stuff they do. You have to do both. If you've ever brought up a child, you can just wake up and tell them how awful they are. They're not going to turn out to be a very nice child.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
I don't that's a good idea. No.
Orlando Vera:
Al though we may want to.
Johnice Williams:
Yeah. But no. It's important for all sides, because there's more than two, to understand where the other part is coming from, and to be very open-minded. And also, one of my favorite words this year is vulnerable. You have to be vulnerable, because not everything is going to go your way. And you have to take the time out, sit back and say, "Okay. They see this. I wonder why they're seeing this, or why they're acting this way, or why this is implemented." And understand, if you still confuse, be okay with going back and asking for more direction, more guidance.
Orlando Vera:
And there are wonderful people. And there's wonderful people throughout the whole system. You also have to allow them and be vulnerable, as Johnice is saying, and bring yourself to a human level. But if you don't act like a human, you're not going to be treated like one. So you have to be vulnerable.
Johnice Williams:
And also the biggest thing, stigma.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Johnice Williams:
Everybody on all sides has stigma. And that's what we need to reduce. That's the only way we can move forward.
Orlando Vera:
And the only way you do that is by, unfortunately, flooding and making it a conversation. So many people have suicide. There's so much suicide that goes on, and people don't want to talk about it. And there's so much other things. I think it's about talking about it and making part of a normal conversation. As unnormal as we may feel that it is, it has to be talked about.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Right. Absolutely. Because otherwise, we're just recreating the stigma because we're keeping it in a shame-based box, right? Because we're not bringing it above board and talking about it. When we talk about something, we take the power out of it. If you've been in therapy, once you say it out loud, it's like, "Oh."
Orlando Vera:
I wasn't so bad. It wasn't so bad.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
That wasn't so bad. Or not even just therapy, to your point, why you're here, to one another, to another human being. I love that you said it's humanity. That it's just human connection, period. This podcast is really kind of... That's an underlying theme. And de stigmatizing mental health through our humanity and connection. And you all doing this work, kind of giving voices to the people who have been on ground zero and actually been through these journeys and saying, "No. No. Your voice matters just as much." That's so powerful.
Orlando Vera:
You scare me when you say that, because I don't even realize sometimes that we are doing the work. It is scary. And also, it's scary because I don't consider myself a brave person. I actually consider myself smart enough to keep my mouth shut. So it's kind of a weird thing.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah. Well, I mean, we have to wrap up pretty soon. But I was thinking as we're talking about this, what has this been like for you to kind of come out this way?
Orlando Vera:
We have no choice. And then I think that's for me. It's no choice.
Johnice Williams:
We don't. We don't have any choice. And that's the good and the bad. But it's mostly great because of the fact that we have experienced it, we have our life experience, and we have learned from other people, our friends, our family that they felt alone and didn't think anybody was listening to them. And now to see that we can move forward or even stay plateau as long as we're working on it, and not just letting it be stagnant, I still I'm shocked because of the fact of us having an organization. That was not part of my plan. I don't know where that came from
Orlando Vera:
How did it happen?
Johnice Williams:
It was just that. We were going to meetings. We were going, and when I heard that there was a meeting that was coming up, it was like, "Okay." I drag him.
Orlando Vera:
Yeah. She did. She did drag me.
Johnice Williams:
And it was like, okay. In 2019, the coalition meeting for Be Well, it was announced and I was like, "Okay." And then to hear that it was previously, have been there for three years and I was like, "Well, wait a minute. What about telling us and everything." So we just made sure we were at the meetings. We've been participating on Zoom, as soon as they switched over, and giving feedback because they want to hear from peers.
Orlando Vera:
And you can't complain unless you say something. So you can say, "I spoke and they didn't hear me." But I think what happens to most of us is we say, "I wasn't heard." "But did you say anything?" "No."
Johnice Williams:
"No. I just listened."
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
"Did you try?"
Orlando Vera:
"Did you even try?" So I think ironically. But I think for us, this is a lifestyle at this point. I feel that it's a curse and a blessing. It's like, "I have no choice but do this. Otherwise, I don't think I'll survive, especially with the trauma I've been through, and the things that I've been in my life." It keeps me sane. And I think it's good for society for me to do this because if not, who knows what I'd be doing?
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
[inaudible 00:41:35]. So you've learned that you know that you need to feel uncomfortable.
Orlando Vera:
Always. And always feel that I don't know what I'm doing. I think part of it, what I always say is when people always compliment me and say, "Oh, my God. You did this and did this." And I'm like, "Okay." And I just walk away. I don't even think about it. I don't like compliments, and I don't want people to say that I'm right, because I always figure, "The minute they say I'm right, I'm lost. I'm done." Because now I'm in my head thinking I'm all this great person, that I've done some great stuff, and then I fail to see something else.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
That you go [inaudible 00:42:15] driving the bus.
Orlando Vera:
And we have to realize that this is a moving bus, like you said, it goes on forever.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah, it does.
Orlando Vera:
It doesn't end.
Johnice Williams:
It doesn't.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Well, and you said something at the beginning, I think even before we started recording about just kind of having an awareness of things. And I think that awareness is so important, and having awareness of your impact on other people and how other people impact you. And it's really the power in your words, and your presence, and everything that you all doing.
Orlando Vera:
But we all have that. I think on any level, every peer has that. And I want them to see that. I don't want to drive them nuts as I'm telling them this stuff, either, because we were talking about that. Because when you tell people sometimes how great they are, we just had this conversation, they turn on you and then they hate you. Because you're saying, "Well, you think I'm so great? I'm not."
Johnice Williams:
Yeah. Yeah.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Well, listen, you too. I mean, it's just so exciting what you're doing, and there's such a need. And I'm really thrilled to talk to you about it and I would love to talk with you more and continue having a dialogue.
Orlando Vera:
Oh, we'd love to keep you updated.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah, that would be great. And just in closing, is there anything that you want... Because not all our listeners know what Be Well is. And this is just kind of a mental health podcast in general, and you matter outside of Be Well, as well. So is there anything that you want our listeners to know, anything you'd like to tell them, or direct them to in terms of, and maybe they're struggling with mental health, or they are a peer of somebody who's struggling with mental health, or a family member which is also a peer? Anything you would like to share?
Johnice Williams:
I just want people to know that things are moving in the right direction. Change takes a long time and we have to be patient. Be Well opened their first campus, though it's just the Orange Campus in December, and they're planning for the second campus, which is going to be a lot larger. I believe that with Be Well, they see us, they see the change, they know that change can be made. And I love the fact that they're public and private. They are inclusive, they're trying to help everybody, bring everybody together from all sides, all walks of life. And that it's not a façade, it's not everyone walking around fake, and it's real. It's totally authentic. It's totally about us.
Orlando Vera:
I like to tell people to complain. I know that doesn't sound right, but I want people to complain and know that they're brave. People who complain are really brave, and I want them to know that. I want them to know that the people that really have made a difference in our whole life throughout history are those that say, "This doesn't work." Not the ones that are just settling and saying, "Oh, this is great." So you're brave, go out there and complain, and then be open about what you're hearing, and let your voice be heard.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Johnice Williams:
Thank you.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Orlando Vera, Johnice Williams, Peer Voices of Orange County, it's so great to talk to you. Thank you for all you're doing thing.
Johnice Williams:
Thank you.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah, absolutely.
Orlando Vera:
Thank you.
Kate Gosney Hoffman:
Yeah.